GW2 and EBay: A speculative analysis thread.

[The Herbalizer]

Originally Posted by Operations

In all technicality, the EULA is already a binding legal contract. Enforcement is just a pain as they have to catch you, prove you broke it, and then get the local legal system to actually care in light of higher priority crime.

To get actual enforcement of anti-piracy laws required a lot of political palm greasing to get congress to think that stealing music and movies was worthy of being put on the same list with the Ganja, and trust me, ANet does not have the same spare cash as the music and film industries.

The fact is, to rely on legal channels for enforcement of their in-game economy is a futile effort, and I guess by now that ANet knows that. In the end, ANet can't really do anything about gold farmers. That's our job.

For gold farming to end, first gold buying must end. That requires the community to take a collective stand. If you see gold farmers, shout them down. If you find out who a gold buyer is, your guild should blacklist them, and word should be passed until no one at all will party with or trade with that person.

And here is the real hard part. If you suspect that that person offering 70K for your Rago's Wand didn't earn it (because he's still wearing scrub armor and is only level 11 in Droks for example), you do not sell him the item.

That's what makes it a real problem. The people willing to sell items to scrubs with e-bay gold just to move their rare crap faster.

People will always sell to ebayers and that will never change.

[Darko_UK]

This thread should be killed in pre-searing and allowed to remain dead.

[Jaziel]

All trades done through NPCs only (not auction houses) and no inter-player trading or drop/pickup of items.

The single best part of the current GW trade system is the NPC Rune/Mats traders. All Anet has to do is extend this to everything...and problem solved.

(This also solves in-game inflation by taking a small part of each trade out of the economy, also by altering the percentage it can be tweaked as needed. All common MMO economy problems solved in one hit, along with the gold-sellers dead in the water)

[The Herbalizer]

Originally Posted by Jaziel

All trades done through NPCs only (not auction houses) and no inter-player trading or drop/pickup of items.

The single best part of the current GW trade system is the NPC Rune/Mats traders. All Anet has to do is extend this to everything...and problem solved.

(This also solves in-game inflation by taking a small part of each trade out of the economy, also by altering the percentage it can be tweaked as needed. All common MMO economy problems solved in one hit, along with the gold-sellers dead in the water)

I wont even begin to explain how bad this idea is and why it would fail.

Most of the suggestions in this thread are totally over the top. If you have a pest infestation in your house you dont need to destroy the house to get rid of the infestation. Just like in Guild Wars, you dont need to destroy an economy and wipe out trading because of a few bad apples.

[Jaziel]

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

I wont even begin to explain how bad this idea is and why it would fail.

Brilliant reasoning...I bow to your superior logic *cough*

[Mordakai]

Originally Posted by The Herbalizer

Most of the suggestions in this thread are totally over the top. If you have a pest infestation in your house you dont need to destroy the house to get rid of the infestation. Just like in Guild Wars, you dont need to destroy an economy and wipe out trading because of a few bad apples.

You do if you want to eliminate ebay Gold.

Your views (I assume it reflects the majority of players?) is an example of why it will never happen.

But, that's the bottom line: If you like tading items, then expect ebay Gold to come with the territory.

[The Herbalizer]

Originally Posted by Jaziel

Brilliant reasoning...I bow to your superior logic *cough*

Seeing as you are unable to see how awful this idea is please allow you to spare some of my valuable time to explain to you.

Assuming the weapons will have varying inherent damage modifications, for example the Wingblade sword will have to have the following inherent mods available at the trader: -
15>50 R7
15>50 R8
15>50 R9
15>50 R10
15>50 R11
15>50 R12
15>50 R13
20<50 R7
20<50 R8
20<50 R9
20<50 R10
20<50 R11
20<50 R12
20<50 R12
15% -5 Energy R7
15% -5 Energy R8
15% -5 Energy R9
15% -5 Energy R10
15% -5 Energy R11
15% -5 Energy R12
15% -5 Energy R13
15% -10 Al R7
15% -10 Al R8
15% -10 Al R9
15% -10 Al R10
15% -10 Al R11
15% -10 Al R12
15% -10 Al R13
15% +5 Energy R7
15% +5 Energy R8
15% +5 Energy R9
15% +5 Energy R10
15% +5 Energy R11
15% +5 Energy R12
15% +5 Energy R13
15% Enchant R7
15% Enchant R8
15% Enchant R9
15% Enchant R10
15% Enchant R11
15% Enchant R12
15% Enchant R13
15% Stance R7
15% Stance R8
15% Stance R9
15% Stance R10
15% Stance R11
15% Stance R12
15% Stance R13
15% Vs Hexed R7
15% Vs Hexed R8
15% Vs Hexed R9
15% Vs Hexed R10
15% Vs Hexed R11
15% Vs Hexed R12
15% Vs Hexed R13
20% While Hexed R7
20% While Hexed R8
20% While Hexed R9
20% While Hexed R10
20% While Hexed R11
20% While Hexed R12
20% While Hexed R13

K, that’s 63 possible combinations for perfect inherent damage modifications alone. Looking like a pretty sweet idea atm. Especially considering positive inherent damage modifications can be 10%, 11%, 12%, 13%, 14% as well as 15%. It gets even better with negative inherent damage modifications as there is for purples afaik 14%, 15%, 16%, 17%, 18%, 19% and 20%. Please bear in mind for blue items the inherent damage modification will be somewhere below 14%.

Oo lots and lots of possible inherent damage modifications for just one sword. For positive inherent damage modifications on wing blade swords there will be 252 different possibilities. Great idea, I bet anet would love to research prices for each one of those.

OMFG, don’t let me forget that I was only talking about max dmg wingblades. Hey I guess there will be thousands of possible wing blades if we include non max as well. Lets say there are 40 swords now we will be looking at possibly hundreds of thousands of price Anet will have to set. Then we have hammers, bows, axes, staffs, offhands, wands, daggers, scythes, spears and shields.

I bet Anet would love employing staff to research what prices the item traders should buy and sell items at. Gee, tens of thousands of possible items to have a price put on them sounds fun. I somehow don’t think a few staff can do all of this maybe tens of people will be needed to work out and set prices. The costs will be huge. Anet does not lose anything due to gold selling.

This is assuming Anet keep a similar system with items in GW2 as they have in GW1.

O, wait there is more. You say it would solve all MMORPG problems. Great man, you have single handedly solved the problem which virtually plagues all popular MMORPGs. I wonder why if it is so great if all the companies havnt already implemented it into their games? Maybe it is because they don’t want to piss off thousands of their customers through ruining the economy and item market. I mean hey, not many people enjoy collecting items, its not like it matters if they quit huh? The Ventaris Sell section of GWG shows how popular trading is and it is a part of GW which cannot be taken away without massive outrage.

Trading is a huge part of virtually MMORPG and it would only be as popular if it is if people actually like collecting items. Buying items at a trader really is not fun and it would remove a section of the game which many people enjoy. It increases end game content and keeps people interested in GW.

I havnt slept for well over a day now so forgive me if I have missed out a lot of stuff.

[Coran Ironclaw]

you are just so close minded...

there is no need for a trader for every kind of sword.

the only thing that is necessary is to creat a big auction house, were you can sell and buy all the stuff you want from other players.
Will it have a lot of waepons?
yes, but if you keep good sections it would be nice. (more or less like guruaction).

so, what's the problem now?

[lyra_song]

Originally Posted by Coran Ironclaw

you are just so close minded...

there is no need for a trader for every kind of sword.

the only thing that is necessary is to creat a big auction house, were you can sell and buy all the stuff you want from other players.
Will it have a lot of waepons?
yes, but if you keep good sections it would be nice. (more or less like guruaction).

so, what's the problem now?

Coran, Herbalizer is responding to players who have posted ideas about eliminating goldbuyers/eBayers by eliminating trading between players.

some of those ideas included:
NPCs that sell weapons with all mods (as Herbalizer listed, although i must disagree, i think NPCs would only sell req 9 weapons)
Customizing items to players to prevent trading

Herbalizer's arguement: Removing player interaction through an in game player controlled economy is bad.

And i agree.

Those of us who like to collect and buy stuff in game should be allowed to, granted that rare items do not give any sort of advantage over generic skinned items.

Collectability and rarity in items gives players something to strive for and quest for.

I like my idea best ;P Make every EULA a full binding enforceable contract that requires your signature. I know some MMORPGS in korea require your SS number to play.

Accountability and lawful punishment of violators should be the deterent (warning, ban, second warning, second ban, third warning, third ban, lawsuit)

[Coran Ironclaw]

sorry lyra but your idea is terrible. that will maybe help a little on usa only, but what about other countries?
like taiwan, china, cora, japan, do you have any idea how much will cost to anet to have a court for 1 player of this countries? that wont happen.
and also that will decrease sells to ... very very very few people left. ncsoft will never do that.

Originally Posted by Jaziel

All trades done through NPCs only (not auction houses) and no inter-player trading or drop/pickup of items.

The single best part of the current GW trade system is the NPC Rune/Mats traders. All Anet has to do is extend this to everything...and problem solved.

(This also solves in-game inflation by taking a small part of each trade out of the economy, also by altering the percentage it can be tweaked as needed. All common MMO economy problems solved in one hit, along with the gold-sellers dead in the water)

I still sign this,

just dont add trader like the other ones, add a big auction house were everybody can put anything, mark its price and sell it.

Those of us who like to collect and buy stuff in game should be allowed to, granted that rare items do not give any sort of advantage over generic skinned items.

and you will be perfectly be able to do it. you can even see now people selling that stupid zetukas bags and red iris flowers on guruaction, it will be the same.

[The Herbalizer]

Originally Posted by Coran Ironclaw

you are just so close minded...

there is no need for a trader for every kind of sword.

the only thing that is necessary is to creat a big auction house, were you can sell and buy all the stuff you want from other players.
Will it have a lot of waepons?
yes, but if you keep good sections it would be nice. (more or less like guruaction).

so, what's the problem now?

Read FTW... If you would have actually took the time to read Jaziel's post he clearly states he is not talking about auction houses. I am responding to the suggestion of create an economy solely based on NPC traders.

Originally Posted by Jaziel

All trades done through NPCs only (not auction houses) and no inter-player trading or drop/pickup of items.

The single best part of the current GW trade system is the NPC Rune/Mats traders. All Anet has to do is extend this to everything...and problem solved.

(This also solves in-game inflation by taking a small part of each trade out of the economy, also by altering the percentage it can be tweaked as needed. All common MMO economy problems solved in one hit, along with the gold-sellers dead in the water)

See if you would have read his post instead of just mindlessly jumping into the thread and throwing around insults (me being close minded) you would see the discussion is about something specific, something which is not auction house related.

If auction houses were being discussed that would be different.

I was responding to the idea of NPC traders.

Actually you will find I support the idea of auction houses and have done for a long while.

Auction houses wont remove the gold selling problem which this thread is about so I dont really see why you brought it up

This thread is regarding the problem of gold selling/buying not how to "fix" the economy. Auction house will do absolutely nothing to stop gold sellers making gold.

[lyra_song]

Originally Posted by Coran Ironclaw

and you will be perfectly be able to do it. you can even see now people selling that stupid zetukas bags and red iris flowers on guruaction, it will be the same.

You do understand Jaziel's idea right?

Jaziel is proposing removal of ALL INTER-PLAYER TRADING. He wants to remove dropping/picking up items also. All trading would be done through NPCs.

Which means....

You cant transfer items to your guildmates unless its via an NPC.
You cant transfer items between accounts if you have 2 accounts.
You cant play a mission, and drop items that dont fit in your bag (maybe your guildmate can hold for you)
You cant drop keys and have other people open chests for you.
You cant trade in combat zones.

Do you really wanna advocate this?!
Its absurd how crippling to the game this would be. Not just to the economy but player interaction.

[Coran Ironclaw]

if I said "close minded" it is because instead of proposing a solution to the all-trader system you gave a refunding "no" with a very long explanation. well it was not nice of my part, so sorry i guess.

Originally Posted by lyra_song

You do understand Jaziel's idea right?

Jaziel is proposing removal of ALL INTER-PLAYER TRADING. He wants to remove dropping/picking up items also. All trading would be done through NPCs.

Which means....

You cant transfer items to your guildmates unless its via an NPC.
You cant transfer items between accounts if you have 2 accounts.
You cant play a mission, and drop items that dont fit in your bag (maybe your guildmate can hold for you)
You cant drop keys and have other people open chests for you.
You cant trade in combat zones.

Do you really wanna advocate this?!
Its absurd how crippling to the game this would be. Not just to the economy but player interaction.

yes, and yes.

let me well write my suggestion then:
All trades done through NPCs and auction houses only and no inter-player trading or drop/pickup of items.

(You cant transfer items between accounts if you have 2 accounts.) I really dont see the use of 2 accounts anymore, anyway. but if you have them, you play them like the are, 2 different accounts, 2 different things.
(You cant play a mission, and drop items that dont fit in your bag ) -> you can delete items, so no problem.
(You cant drop keys and have other people open chests for you.) -> emm, so what the deal here? if you want more than one reward for a chest then that is a chest-related design problem, not trading problem, and considering this is for gw2 we dont even know if there will be chests or if they will function the same way.
(You cant trade in combat zones.) nop, and the problem is?


you cant transfer items to guildmates => ok, this is actually the only issue i see.

so we need to evaluate if a online buyers-free game is worth not being able to transfer items to guildmates.

I go for the online buyer-free game.
(actually i would be glad not to see those "i am poor, please give me money", "what is the guild for if you dont assist your members with items and money"...

[lyra_song]

I dont believe a non-buyer game would eliminate ebayers.

You can sell accounts. You can manipulate trades even if its through a third party is involved (Shill bidding). etc.

All this idea would do is cripple the game and make it more frustrating, more limited and not fun. If i want to trade with someone, i should be allowed to trade with them.

Instead of stopping the cause of problem (idiots who want to buy gold), you are proposing a change that ruins the fun of some players in the game.

[Coran Ironclaw]

Originally Posted by lyra_song

I dont believe a non-buyer game would eliminate ebayers.
You can sell accounts.

yep, I can't think of a way to prevent that, but the market will decrease a lot. Very very few of the people who already buy online are willing to buy a complete account.

Originally Posted by lyra_song

You can manipulate trades even if its through a third party is involved (Shill bidding). etc.

i dont understand that.

Originally Posted by lyra_song

If i want to trade with someone, i should be allowed to trade with them.

why for?

please explain how this reduce fun, because i dont really have fun going to a city and yelling for so long to find someone to trade with.
What is the fun of trading?
i dont find it.

[Personette]

Herbalizer - the problem with your argument is that although you are partially correct (it would be a massive undertaking to have one or many NPCs trading for every single possible weapon and mod), you are not wholly correct.

There is an alternative to having NPCs that trade for every single possible weapon and mod - which would be to build on the system that already exists, where a particular NPC will cover a narrow range of items. You can attack the problem piecemeal, bit by bit, rather than assuming it's an all-or-nothing proposition.

For example, instead of "NPC [trader of any and all weapons]" you might have...

NPC [bow string trader]
NPC [fortitude mod trader]
NPC [zealous mod trader]
NPC [enchant mod trader]

etc.

Personally, my problem isn't so much that I care about the trading clogging up chat, but that I don't have the patience to sell anything on the trade channel/search feature. When I get something that isn't obviously extremely valuable, that I can't give to my heroes, I sell it to the merchant. I know a lot of the time I could get (at least) 10 times as much if I tried to trade it, but...not my idea of fun.

If I could funnel even a small portion of the things I sell to a merchant through a trader, it would make a big difference to my generally miniscule guild wars gold horde.

Most problems are much more manageable if you start small. The NPC trader option is a good start...enlarge it a bit.

[lyra_song]

Originally Posted by Coran Ironclaw

Very very few of the people who already buy online are willing to buy a complete account.

quit pulling generalizations out of your ass without citing your sources.

i dont understand that.

What im basically saying is. Any system can be broken.

Using NPCs and an auction system, even without direct player trading can be used to make bought gold transfers.

First. You must understand what a shill is.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

A shill is an associate of a person selling goods or services who pretends no association to the seller and assumes the air of an enthusiastic customer. The intention of the shill is, using crowd psychology, to encourage other potential customers unaware of the set-up to purchase said goods or services. Shills are often employed by confidence artists.

Ok? Simple. Now on to Shill bidding.

Originally Posted by eBay

Shill Bidding is bidding that artificially increases an item's price or apparent desirability, or bidding by individuals with a level of access to the seller's item information not available to the general Community.

How would I use Shill Bidding to transfer gold?

Gold Buyer puts up an auction for a common item.

Gold Seller bids on the item at an extraordinarily high price and uses shill bidding to raise the price to the amount that the gold buyer paid for + the cost of the item.

so say i buy $10 worth of gold. i put up a stack of dust, and the gold seller bids on it so it costs the $10 worth of gold.

Voila.

Originally Posted by Coran Ironclaw

please explain how this reduce fun, because i dont really have fun going to a city and yelling for so long to find someone to trade with.
What is the fun of trading?
i dont find it.

Why is shopping fun? You must not be a woman? :P

Digging around for a long time and finding a good deal feels REALLY REALLY good. Finding what you are exactly looking for amidst a pile of junk can be quite satisfying. I actually was at Marshall's yesterday...*cough*

The current system of trading in GW can be very frustrating and any new system that Anet implements should help bring buyers and sellers together (such as an auction system) and make trading easier, faster and more pleasant.

It should help player interaction, not hinder it.

-------------

As a side note, this idea reminds me of dating websites (using Yahoo! Personals as my example).

Dating websites allow people to search profiles. (Buyer looking for a seller)

But they cannot communicate directly. They must communicate through the website initially. (Buyer must use NPC)

But once they have started communicating, they can exchange information and decide to use their own ways of talking to each other outside of the website. (Use direct trading)

This idea would be as if the two people who wanted to know each other had no other way to exchange information (trade items) except through the dating website. They couldnt exchange phone #s, emails, or anything. They could only use the dating website.

*shrug* kind of a vague analogy, but you get my point.

I dont like the idea of such a stranglehold.

[Bryant Again]

Originally Posted by Obey The Cat

mobs in gw2 won't drop gold when killed, that's stated in the article.

= no farmers

= no gold-ebay'ing


kkthxbye

...Um so is this true or not? I haven't found it in the article yet...

[Coran Ironclaw]

Why is shopping fun? You must not be a woman? :P

aamm, nop i am not. =p

but, do you go to the guruaction in times?
i expend like 45 minutes everyday looking for items that i want (ok, it would be like 15 minutes if the site were fast)

and even when it is not a thing where i have much fun, (maybe the fact that lag and slowness can get me mad sometimes there has something to do) it is not bad and finding something interesting and cheap is enjoyable.

but, that can be inside the game on the auction house, and you even would have it a lot easier to "go shopping" and search for what you want.

-------------

about the inter-personal thing...

well it is not that you are going to do quest and missions with them, just a silly trade.
i dont find that important on the trading thing.

[lyra_song]

Originally Posted by Coran Ironclaw

but, that can be inside the game on the auction house, and you even would have it a lot easier to "go shopping" and search for what you want.

I never disagreed to the auction house. I would LOVE an auction house. I dont see it happening anytime soon though...

I am against the idea of removing player interaction.

about the inter-personal thing...

well it is not that you are going to do quest and missions with them, just a silly trade.
i dont find that important on the trading thing.

Just a silly trade?

I have a bow. My friend Haagan gave it to me. Its an Amber Longbow +5 energy. He gave it to me out of nowhere. I will never sell this bow because he gave it to me.

Theres something about taking away my ability to give gifts to my friends that really really really pisses me off.